Legislature(1995 - 1996)

02/19/1996 08:12 AM House RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                       February 19, 1996                                       
                           8:12 a.m.                                           
                                                                               
                                                                               
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
                                                                               
 Representative Joe Green, Co-Chairman                                         
 Representative William K. "Bill" Williams, Co-Chairman                        
 Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chairman                                      
 Representative Ramona Barnes                                                  
 Representative John Davies                                                    
 Representative Pete Kott                                                      
 Representative Don Long                                                       
                                                                               
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
                                                                               
 Representative Alan Austerman                                                 
 Representative Irene Nicholia                                                 
                                                                               
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
                                                                               
 *HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION 58                                                    
 Relating to reauthorization and reform of the Endangered Species              
 Act.                                                                          
      - PASSED CSHJR 58(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                  
                                                                               
 (* First public hearing)                                                      
                                                                               
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
                                                                               
 BILL:  HJR 58                                                               
 SHORT TITLE: REFORM THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT                                
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) GREEN                                           
                                                                               
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG                 ACTION                                    
 02/12/96      2722    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 02/12/96      2722    (H)   RESOURCES                                         
 02/19/96              (H)   RESOURCES 8:00 AM, CAPITOL 124                    
                                                                               
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
                                                                               
 JEFF LOGAN, Legislative Assistant                                             
    to Representative Joe Green                                                
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 State Capitol, Room 24                                                        
 Juneau, AK  99801                                                             
 Telephone: (907) 465-4931                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HJR 58                                      
                                                                               
 JACK E. PHELPS, Executive Director                                            
 Alaska Forest Association, Incorporated                                       
 111 Stedman, Suite 200                                                        
 Ketchikan, Alaska  99901-6559                                                 
 Telephone:  (907) 225-5114                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HJR 58                           
                                                                               
 PAULA EASLY, Board Member                                                     
 Alaska Resources Development Council                                          
 Vice-Chair, Nationwide Public Projects Coalition                              
 2134 Crataegus Avenue                                                         
 Anchorage, Alaska  99501                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 274-6800                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HJR 58                                      
                                                                               
 ED GRASSER, Lobbyist                                                          
 Alaskan Outdoor Council                                                       
 P.O. Box 2193                                                                 
 Mat-Su, Alaska  99645                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 745-3772                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HJR 58                                         
                                                                               
 SARA HANNAN, Executive Director                                               
 Alaska Environmental Lobby                                                    
 P.O. Box 22151                                                                
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 463-3366                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HJR 58                                      
                                                                               
 RON SOMERVILLE, Technical Consultant                                          
   to House Majority                                                           
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol Building, Room 208                                                    
 Juneau, AK  99801                                                             
 Telephone:  (907) 465-2689                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HJR 58                                      
                                                                               
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 96-18, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN JOE GREEN called the House Resources Committee meeting            
 to order at 8:12 a.m.  Members present at the call to order were              
 Representatives Green, Williams, Ogan, Kott, Barnes, Davies and               
 Long.  Members absent were Representatives Austerman and Nicholia.            
 This meeting was teleconferenced to Ketchikan, Mat-Su, and                    
 Anchorage.  A quorum was present.                                             
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN announced that the agenda was HJR 58.                       
                                                                               
 HJR 58 - REFORM THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT                                  
                                                                               
 Number 100                                                                    
                                                                               
 JEFF LOGAN, Legislative Assistant to Representative Joe Green, was            
 first to testify.  He said the Endangered Species Act (ESA) passed            
 in 1973, has been amended several times since that time through a             
 reauthorization process.  He said the ESA has been controversial              
 since its inception and added that Congress has been trying to pass           
 legislation reauthorizing the ESA since 1972.  He said in 1995                
 Representative Pombo from California and Representative Don Young             
 from Alaska introduced legislation, HR 2275, to pass ESA reform               
 legislation.                                                                  
                                                                               
 MR. LOGAN said, even those who are opposed to HR 2275, admit that             
 the ESA needs overhaul.  He said the ESA has received national                
 attention due to its application with certain species including the           
 Spotted Owl and the California King Salmon.  He said only a small             
 number of species have recovered or benefited as a direct result of           
 being listed as endangered or threatened.  He said, in recent                 
 years, major public opposition to the implementation of the ESA has           
 created a major groundswell of support for ESA reform.                        
                                                                               
 Number 211                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. LOGAN said private property owners have been impacted by                  
 overzealous agency implementation of ESA.  Complaints by the                  
 public, impacted industries and local governments have prompted the           
 federal agencies to make major administrative and policy changes              
 affecting how the ESA is interpreted.  Unfortunately, these changes           
 came too little, too late and the general public no longer trusts             
 the federal agencies to improve the ESA process.                              
                                                                               
 Number 255                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. LOGAN said HJR 58 is intended to support the efforts of our               
 Congressional delegation and other states in reforming the ESA.  He           
 said there are sections of HR 2275 that Alaskans would like to see            
 altered, but that it is a good foundation from which to start the             
 dialogue.  He said, hopefully, Congress will continue their efforts           
 to pass reauthorization this year or early next year.  He concluded           
 that HJR 58 simply indicates Alaska's strong support for that                 
 effort.                                                                       
                                                                               
 Number 299                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT asked for the definition of a biological             
 diversity reserve system.                                                     
                                                                               
 MR. LOGAN deferred the question to Mr. Somerville, as he could give           
 a more precise definition.                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 352                                                                    
                                                                               
 JACK E. PHELPS, Executive Director, Alaska Forest Association,                
 Incorporated, testified via teleconference from Ketchikan.  He said           
 the Association represents the forest products industry in Alaska,            
 with more than 250 member companies across the state.                         
                                                                               
 MR. PHELPS read from a sponsor statement, "Thank you for                      
 introducing HJR 58 supporting the re-authorization of the ESA and             
 supporting Congressman Young's effort to bring some balance to this           
 important act.  As you correctly state in your sponsor statement,             
 Alaska has a great deal to lose if the ESA is not administered in             
 a fair and balanced manner.  The forest products industry, together           
 with the other extractive industries in Alaska, is very concerned             
 about the growing misapplication of the ESA, especially in the                
 western states.                                                               
                                                                               
 "HJR 58 says the `the state of Alaska supports the basic concept              
 embodied in the act to prevent the extinction of species.'  The               
 Alaska Forest Association echoes that position.  However, we                  
 believe it is also important to protect humans and their interests            
 in this world, and that when those interests conflict, some trade-            
 offs may have to occur.  We do not, for example, believe that it is           
 acceptable for whole communities to be put out of work merely to              
 provide absolute protection to a particular species in a particular           
 place.  In other words, the `distinct population segment' concept             
 should be carefully reviewed.                                                 
                                                                               
 "The association also believes that the ESA should not be used as             
 a means of taking private property without just compensation; a               
 principle embodied in our United States Constitution.  This country           
 and this state were founded on the principle that no person should            
 be deprived of life, liberty or the use of private property without           
 due process of law.  The authors of our state constitution                    
 considered this principle so important that they incorporated it              
 into Article I, Section 7 of the state constitution.  It is vital             
 to the health of the forest products industry, not only in Alaska             
 but across the country, that this principle be consistently applied           
 in the implementation of the ESA.  To that end, I urge you and                
 Congressman Young to continue your efforts to restore some sense of           
 fairness to the national effort to protect endangered animals.                
                                                                               
 "Thank you for the opportunity to testify today on this important             
 matter.  I would be happy to answer any questions you or the                  
 committee may have."                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 531                                                                    
                                                                               
 PAULA EASLY, Alaska Resources Development Council, testified via              
 teleconference from Anchorage.  She added that she is also the                
 Vice-Chair, Nationwide Public Project Coalition (NPPC), which                 
 consists, primarily, of cities, counties and special districts                
 throughout the United States.  She said this coalition is "pretty             
 frustrated because they just cannot fulfill their statutory                   
 responsibility for building basic local, regional government                  
 infrastructure project."  She said the biggest roadblock has been             
 (indisc.), Clean Water Act, and the ESA.  She said, (indisc.--                
 coughing) and the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC),             
 we are following on those two federal laws.  She added that Dr.               
 Frank Dunkill (ph.), head of United States Fish and Wildlife                  
 Service and an officer of the NPPC until his recent death who felt            
 that (indisc.--overlapping voices) Congressman Richard Pombo.  "he            
 saw that, firsthand, that the act simply wasn't potentially                   
 (indisc.--coughing) that it was making a huge dent in the economy             
 and quality of people and city of this county.                                
                                                                               
 Number 634                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. EASLY supported the passage of HJR 58 and said it would be                
 useful in the effort that is occurring in Congress.  She made a               
 recommendation that on page one, line seven, in the discussion of             
 cooperation among federal agencies, state fish and wildlife                   
 agencies, and private landowners, that "local government" should be           
 included as it broadens the scope of those who are affected.                  
                                                                               
 Number 701                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. EASLY said on line 13, she felt it should read, "Whereas the              
 detrimental effects of the act on private landowners and regional             
 economy," to broaden the concept.                                             
                                                                               
 Number 724                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. EASLY said on page two, line 14, she felt it should read, "an             
 effective partnership with the states and community in the                    
 conservation of endangered species."                                          
                                                                               
 Number 773                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. EASLY cited an example of a habitat conservation plan which               
 occurred in Riverside County. This county was supposed to set aside           
 45,000 acres for a kangaroo rat preserve.  She said in order to               
 accomplish that task, everyone buying land in the county had to pay           
 $1,950 per acre rat fee.  She said this fee went into a fund which            
 bought land for the preserve.  She said in eight years almost $30             
 million has gone into this fund which bought 8,400 acres.  She said           
 the agencies are now threatening that they will not issue an                  
 interim take permit.  She said everyone convened to rectify the               
 permit process, and now that the county is near the end of this               
 process, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has told Riverside                
 County that they want more land, which would cost $1.6 million.  If           
 this land is not bought, the county will not be granted a 30 year             
 permit.  On February 1, 1996, the Board of Directors of the                   
 Conservation Agency unanimously adopted a resolution which states,            
 if the agency plans are not formed by May 7, 1996, and if the                 
 agencies ask for any more money, Riverside County will dissolve the           
 whole process.  She said this is an example where a local community           
 feels lied to, misrepresented, mistreated and mislead by federal              
 agencies.   She said this example also represents the local                   
 governments and counties relationship to the process and how                  
 important it is that they have a role.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 999                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. EASLY said there is an opportunity this year to address private           
 property protection.  She mentioned another federal bill, by                  
 Senator Dole EB 605, which is a property rights protection bill.              
                                                                               
 Number 1055                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DON LONG asked her to repeat her suggestion for line           
 14, on page two.                                                              
                                                                               
 MS. EASLY said the local communities have an important part in the            
 conservation plan and that they should be incorporated in equal               
 standing during those negotiations.  She referred to a court case             
 in New Mexico, which determined that under the National                       
 Environmental Policy Act, federal regulations should encourage and            
 allow joint planning between the federal agencies and the local               
 government.                                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 1191                                                                   
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN expressed concern that if "and communities" were            
 included its definition would be confusing.   He said the problem             
 with the ESA is that the language is open to conjecture and he                
 didn't want to revise HJR 58 and have language open to conjecture.            
 He added that the recommendation, Ms. Easly made on page one, was             
 good.                                                                         
                                                                               
 MS. EASLY defined communities as including "cities, boroughs,                 
 counties, whatever."  She said HR 2275 supports the inclusion of              
 communities.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 1239                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked for clarification on some points                    
 regarding HJR 58 and was told that Mr. Somerville would answer                
 those questions.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 1268                                                                   
                                                                               
 ED GRASSER, Alaskan Outdoor Council, testified via teleconference             
 from Mat-Su.  He said his organization supports HJR 58.                       
                                                                               
 Number 1292                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. LOGAN said the national biological reserve concept is an                  
 embodiment of Title 6, Section 601 of HR 2275.  He said HR 2275               
 establishes the national biological diversity reserve which is                
 comprised of the National Conservation System units.  He said                 
 National Conservation System is defined as federally owned lands              
 within the National Park System, National Wildlife Refuge System,             
 the National Wilderness Preservation System and some wild segments            
 of rivers within the National Wild and Scenic River System.  The              
 secretary has, within 18 months of passage of the act, the power to           
 nominate, to the biological diversity system, lands which he or she           
 determines would contribute to the protection, maintenance and                
 enhancement of biological diversity in accordance with the                    
 provisions of the act.  He said, in his understanding of how it has           
 been explained, that those units of federally managed and                     
 designated lands, that the Secretary of Agriculture believes would            
 contribute to a biological diversity under HR 2275, would be under            
 another classification such as scenic, or wildlife refuge, and also           
 would be classified biological diversified.                                   
                                                                               
 Number 1401                                                                   
                                                                               
 SARA HANNAN, Executive Director, Alaska Environmental Lobby, was              
 next to testify.  She said she opposed the passage of HJR 58.  She            
 said she wanted to draw the committee's attention to the contrast             
 between the whereas clauses and the conclusions.  She said at the             
 outset we say that the state of Alaska is concerned (indisc.--paper           
 shuffling) and that is why her organization concluded that there is           
 no evidence that the ESA is a problem in Alaska.  She said there              
 are no resource industries who are in trouble with the ESA.  She              
 said the state of Alaska is doing many things to regulate the                 
 harvesting of timber that resemble actions taken by the federal               
 government to restrict resource extraction.  She said buffer zones            
 that are required on private land, under state law, are parallel to           
 things required by federal law in other states.  She said this is             
 an example of why sometimes it is in the government's best                    
 interest, at some times, to restrict private development.  She                
 urged the committee to think about it in the most conservative                
 sense, if we don't protect anadromous streams, we don't know what             
 the economic impact would be to the state of Alaska.  She said the            
 state is restricting private land owners use by placing a                     
 restriction of harvested timber in a buffer strip zone, but the               
 state has collectively made a decision believing it to be good                
 management.  She said the state places many restrictions on private           
 property.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 1491                                                                   
                                                                               
 MS. HANNAN said the ESA, a regulation deemed important by the                 
 federal government, is important in philosophy.  She made an                  
 analogy to being given an ark which encompassed a complex web of              
 things in balance with each other.  She said we are not sure where            
 the medical breakthroughs of the twenty-first century are going to            
 come from, but most of the  twentieth-century breakthroughs were              
 dependent on animal research and species discovery.  She said it is           
 short sighted to say that if those conflict with human use, we                
 should side with human use.  She said the most conservative and               
 long range plan should be to make sure that we know everything                
 before we decide to let it go.  She said the science behind many              
 species is not fully achieved.                                                
                                                                               
 Number 1535                                                                   
                                                                               
 MS. HANNAN said the ESA is a federal law with an accompanying set             
 of regulations that, like other federal laws, cause criticism.  She           
 said, when one policy is implemented over a vast nation, issues               
 will arise where the policy comes out in ways that are not liked.             
 She didn't feel that the ESA was failing.  She added that she                 
 didn't feel that HR 2275 gets us to a resolution on the ESA which             
 makes us better prepared to face the twenty-first century with new            
 science.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 1593                                                                   
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BILL WILLIAMS agreed that there is no endangered species             
 being affected in the state of Alaska.  He said HR 2275 will fix              
 some of the problem areas within the ESA such as habitat                      
 conservation areas.  He said, in Alaska, there are no endangered              
 species, but habitat conservation areas were still required because           
 there might-be species that are endangered.  He said HR 2275 is               
 trying to fix the might be situations.  He said a reform of the ESA           
 is needed.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 1658                                                                   
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR GREEN referred to information available in the committee             
 packet which showed examples of where there have been abuses                  
 because of the ESA.  He cited an example involving private                    
 ownership, where a eagle nest on private land required a buffer               
 zone of 500 acres.  He said the ESA causes private land owners to             
 chop down a tree with an eagle's nest in it to avoid the ESA                  
 requirements, so the ESA reduces, rather than enhances, the                   
 benefits to endangered species.                                               
                                                                               
 Number 1720                                                                   
                                                                               
 MS. HANNAN said she wished the Department of Fish and Game and the            
 Department of Natural Resources were here to talk about how the ESA           
 is being carried out in Alaska, and how the implementation is                 
 affecting our resource management.                                            
                                                                               
 Number 1742                                                                   
                                                                               
 RON SOMERVILLE, Technical Consultant to House Majority, said his              
 expertise and background involves work with the ESA.  He said the             
 ESA is not currently working as Congress intended it to do.  He               
 said there are some examples where it has worked and mentioned the            
 Aleutian Canada goose which established its previous range and the            
 Peregrine falcon.  He said the problem with the ESA is a total                
 inflexibility with how it is administered by the agency.  He                  
 mentioned the policies adopted by Secretary Andrews and Secretary             
 Brown in "response to their responsibilities" associated with the             
 ESA.  He questioned why policies were being formulated in an                  
 attempt to prevent a reform of the ESA.  He believed there has been           
 such a response because the ESA was enacted in 1972.                          
                                                                               
 Number 1846                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE cited an example of the Southeast United States                
 regarding woodpecker nests.  He said private land owners chopped              
 down these nesting trees on their property before anyone found out            
 an endangered species was nesting in them.  He said approximately             
 60 percent of the endangered species habitat is critically linked             
 with private property.  He said the federal government, through               
 adoption of strict policies, could not save many of these species             
 because of the private property issue.  He said Secretary Andrews             
 indicated that changes in dealing with private property owners,               
 partly because of the Sweet Home (indisc.) the Supreme Court upheld           
 the Secretary of the Interiors right to list critical habitat                 
 involving private property.  He said more legislation, dealing with           
 this issue, is being submitted by Congress.  He said the western              
 governors developed a consensus position on the ESA which called              
 for major reform and incentives for private property owners.                  
                                                                               
 Number 1916                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE said in Alaska if the ESA is not restructured, there           
 will be problems in the future.  He cited an example regarding a              
 ground fishery and the impact it had on the Stellar Sea Lion.  The            
 state of Alaska intervened and it was ruled in favor of the ground            
 fishery, but the judge who presided over the case indicated concern           
 over whether or not the state was meeting the strict wording of the           
 ESA.  He said under the ESA, agencies have unfettered rights to               
 declare species endangered or threatened, establish critical                  
 habitat areas and have the ability to regulate activities which               
 potentially would impact those species.                                       
                                                                               
 Number 1976                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE cited an example regarding salmon.  He said Alaska             
 is being affected because of the abuses which occurred in the                 
 Columbia River system.  He referred to the Snake River Chinook                
 salmon and said Alaska takes a minuscule number of this salmon, but           
 must take an incidental take from it because of the wording of the            
 ESA.  He said in the process of catching the healthy stocks of                
 Alaskan and British Columbian king salmon, a permit must be                   
 obtained.  He said the quota, under this permit, continues to go              
 down.  He said a judge ruled last year that Alaska must severely              
 reduce their quota in order to halt the declining king salmon                 
 stocks which have been reduced in the Snake River area.                       
                                                                               
 Number 2004                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE referred to the example Co-Chairman Williams cited,            
 where two species were targeted on a petition, the Vancouver Island           
 Goshawk and the Alexander Archipelago wolf as being endangered.  He           
 said the United States Fish and Wildlife Service (US FWS) agreed to           
 go ahead with a petition and do the review.  He said the petitions            
 should have been rejected outright because there was no chance that           
 they would have prevailed in court.  He said the US FWS explained             
 biologically why those species were not distinct.  He said a clear            
 understanding is needed of the habitat and the correlating species            
 number, specifically species that, in Alaska, are in the                      
 peripheries of their range.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 2094                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE said, of the 1500 endangered species on the list,              
 very few have been removed from the ESA and this fact is targeted             
 in HR 2275.  He said, most people in Alaska would agree, that the             
 language defining, "distinct population segments," needs to be                
 changed.  He again referred to the fact that you must know the                
 habitats in order to be able to judge whether or not they should be           
 on the ESA.  He reiterated that strict controls are implemented               
 once they are on this list, with little chance of the species going           
 off the list.  He cited an example regarding Steelhead numbers.  He           
 said this issue is stalemated in Congress.                                    
                                                                               
 Number 2143                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE said that from his perspective, the government would           
 want to gather all information from various sources; the state,               
 public, local communities regarding conservation plans, habitat               
 plans, harvest regimes, species population assessment models to               
 give the best possible information for decision making.  He said              
 this does not happen.  He said the federal government dictates what           
 needs to happen and that ruling must be followed.  He talked about            
 the different factors which could work in partnership with each               
 other and cited an example of the grizzly bear in Montana.                    
                                                                               
 Number 2210                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE said agencies need better scientific criteria,                 
 specified in the ESA, for listing and de-listing purposes.  He said           
 the United States supported, with societies convention, the                   
 provision which called for qualitative criteria for internationally           
 listed species.  He said if there was a better peer review the                
 Vancouver Goshawk example would never have occurred.                          
                                                                               
 Number 2240                                                                   
 MR. SOMERVILLE mentioned the provision in the ESA requiring the               
 state to give 60 days notice before they legally challenge the                
 federal government.  He said this provision means that the fishing            
 period is over when the time period ends.  He concluded that these            
 points are addressed in HJR 58 and that he was available for                  
 questions.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 2270                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN asked if certain groups were targeting              
 particular activities using the ESA when it hasn't been                       
 justifiable.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 2297                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE said many environmental laws are interpreted                   
 differently by the courts than they are intended to solve.  He                
 cited the example of the spotted owl and other cases where issues             
 have been tied up by unnecessary litigation.                                  
                                                                               
 Number 2328                                                                   
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR GREEN asked for the definition of private property in the            
 ESA.                                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 2335                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE said there is no definition of private property in             
 the ESA, private property would be any titled land.  He said he               
 could not answer whether that would be any non-federally owned                
 land.                                                                         
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR GREEN said the implication he received from the ESA was              
 that private property was any non-federally owned land.                       
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE agreed with that, but added that he was hesitant to            
 state anything because of other legislation regarding private                 
 property.  He said, in the other legislation, the interpretation              
 has been titled land and said that would include state land.                  
                                                                               
 Number 2379                                                                   
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said for the record that Representative Davies              
 arrived "twenty minutes ago."                                                 
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE JOHN DAVIES asked for clarification on page two,               
 item eight on the list of resolves in HJR 58, and asked why it was            
 important to eliminate the biological diversity reserve system.               
                                                                               
 Number 2390                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE said this issue was included by U.S. Representative            
 Pombo in response to the private property issue.  Representative              
 Pombo said we have national park areas, national refuge areas,                
 national wilderness areas and that the federal government should              
 impose its standards on its own land first.  He said the federal              
 government put in a provision of the ESA which excluded these                 
 federal lands, labeled biodiversity of other lands as one of                  
 primary features and to manage it accordingly.  He said the ESA               
 should not be a biodiversity act.  He said Alaska has 140 million             
 acres of withdrawal, of which 90 million acres is refuges and                 
 parks.  He said Alaska, when the Alaska National Interest Lands               
 Conservation Act (ANILCA) passed, chose not to put in                         
 transportation and utility corridors, instead Senator Stevens                 
 included Title XI.  He said a biodiversity inclusion would never              
 allow the state of Alaska to receive a Title XI permit for a                  
 transportation system.  He said Alaska received a lot of special              
 considerations regarding its circumstances under ANILCA and if the            
 biodiversity classification were implemented you would see a lot of           
 changes being made by the Secretary of the Interior.  He felt that            
 Alaska would probably be targeted first to enact a biodiversity               
 system.                                                                       
                                                                               
 TAPE 96-18, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked about page 2, segment nine.                       
                                                                               
 Number 013                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE said, in HR 2275, the basic principle is a demand              
 for a prioritization process to target the species most endangered.           
 He said HR 2275 requests better economic assessments, better                  
 scientific principles, and consideration of the long term interests           
 of the public.                                                                
 Number 055                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES mentioned biodiversity, but then later                  
 clarified that he was asking about consideration of the public                
 interest and how that could be implemented.                                   
                                                                               
 Number 080                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE said, under the HR 2275, the agencies would consider           
 economic impact and this is a public interest issue.  He said if              
 the costs of aiding a particular species are so high, and the                 
 chances of recovery are so small, it might be better to appoint               
 that same amount of money, $600 million to $700 million per year in           
 regards to the Snake River Chinook salmon, to another endangered              
 species.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 137                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES said the economic aspect appears to be                  
 incorporated into the previous phrase, "costs of implementation,"             
 in segment nine.  He expressed concern over the vagueness of the              
 language regarding the definition of the public interest.                     
                                                                               
 Number 155                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT referred to page three, segment ten,                 
 "requirement that recovery plans impose equitable burdens on                  
 affected entities," and asked for a definition of affected                    
 entities, who they would be and how it would be applied.                      
                                                                               
 Number 171                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE said Alaska has been forced to limit their stocks of           
 the Columbia River salmon which the fishermen feel that this has              
 been an unequitable burden and affected entities "is just that."              
 He said the area, which affects the change in the species, should             
 pay the heavier burden through something like the incidental take             
 quota.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 226                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked, if the Canadians were an affected                  
 entity, how HJR 58 would apply.                                               
                                                                               
 Number 248                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE said HJR 58 would not apply to a foreign country,              
 except in the methods the United States government can utilize such           
 as negotiations or targeting trade.                                           
                                                                               
 Number 279                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked whether the species itself would be                 
 considered in the definition of affected entity.                              
                                                                               
 MR. SOMERVILLE believed that the definition would only include                
 human entities.                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 313                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN made a motion to adopt amendments on page one,            
 add "local governments" on lines 8, 11, and "regional economies" on           
 line 13 in HJR 58.  Hearing no objection HJR 58 was so amended.               
                                                                               
 Number 340                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR WILLIAMS made a motion to move HJR 58 as amended.                    
                                                                               
 Number 352                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES objected to the motion and proposed an                  
 amendment, on page two, lines 7,8, and 9, deleting the first,                 
 "resolve".  He mentioned the fact that not all the committee                  
 members have read HR 2275 and added the difficulty of supporting              
 legislation of another legislative body which can be altered in               
 revisions.  He said HJR 58 specifically addresses the issues of               
 concern to Alaska.                                                            
                                                                               
 Number 404                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN objected to the proposed amendment.                       
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR GREEN said HJR 58 states that HR 2275 needs to be enacted            
 as a guide for ESA reform because it addresses issues of concern              
 for Alaska.                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES modified his amendment on page two, delete              
 the "parenthetical using HR 2275 as the basis for the                         
 reauthorization legislation".                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 479                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR WILLIAMS said the HJR 58 asks Congress to proceed with               
 reauthorization of ESA using HR 2275 as a basis for this                      
 reauthorization of legislation.  He asked how the proposed                    
 amendment would affect HJR 58.                                                
                                                                               
 Number 511                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR GREEN said he felt this proposed amendment would take away           
 from HJR 58.  He said he would encourage an objection to the                  
 proposed amendment and added that he planned to vote against it.              
                                                                               
 Number 673                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he objected to the modified amendment.               
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR WILLIAMS discussed the legislative process and said at               
 this time HJR 58 supports HR 2275 in its current form.                        
                                                                               
 Number 583                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES said he could not support all of HR 2275, but           
 he could vote for a HJR 58 which regarded a specific                          
 reauthorization of the ESA.  He said Congressman Young would most             
 likely use HJR 58 to pass HR 2275.  He said once HJR 58 was passed            
 there was no way that it could be modified if HR 2275 was modified            
 in a way that the legislature would no longer support.                        
                                                                               
 Number 664                                                                    
                                                                               
 A vote was taken on Representative Davies' amendment.                         
 Representative Davies voted yes.  Representatives Long, Ogan,                 
 Williams and Green voted no.  Representative Kott was absent for              
 the vote.  The amendment failed to be adopted by the House Standing           
 Resources Committee.                                                          
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES proposed an amendment on page two, delete               
 lines 27 and 28.                                                              
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS objected to the proposed amendment.                      
                                                                               
 Number 675                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES said exempting Alaska from the biological               
 diversity reserve system is too extreme a position to take.  He               
 said most biologists would testify to the importance of                       
 biodiversity and the importance of maintaining and enhancing it.              
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN announced that Representative Barnes joined the             
 committee meeting.  A roll call vote was taken on the proposed                
 amendment.  Representative Davies voted yes.  Representatives Kott,           
 Long, Ogan, Williams, Green, and Barnes voted nay.  The proposed              
 amendment failed to be adopted by the House Standing Committee on             
 Resources.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 783                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES proposed an amendment on lines 30 to 31, page           
 two, delete, "and the public interest".                                       
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR WILLIAMS objected to this proposed amendment.                        
                                                                               
 A roll call vote was taken on the proposed amendment.                         
 Representative Davies voted yes.  Representatives Kott, Long, Ogan,           
 Williams, Green, Barnes voted nay.  The proposed amendment failed             
 to be adopted by the House Standing Committee on Resources.                   
                                                                               
 Number 780                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT proposed an amendment, based on testimony by              
 Mr. Somerville, on page three, line two, deleting the word,                   
 "entities" and inserting, "user groups".  He said this clarifies              
 the language.  Hearing no objections Representative Kott's                    
 amendment was adopted to HJR 58 by the House Standing Committee on            
 Resources.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 818                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS made a motion to move CSHJR 58(RES) with                 
 individual recommendations.                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES objected to this motion.  A roll call vote              
 was taken.  Representatives Barnes, Kott, Long, Ogan, Williams and            
 Green voted yes.  Representative Davies voted nay.  The House                 
 Standing Committee on Resources moved CSHJR 58(RES) out of                    
 committee.                                                                    
                                                                               
 ADJOURNMENT                                                                   
                                                                               
 There being no further business to come before the House Standing             
 Committee on Resources, Co-Chair Green adjourned the meeting at               
 9:20 a.m.                                                                     
                                                                               

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